The Partovi Effect

AI Is Taking Over Work—But Where Does Meaning Come From? The Conversation Gets Real

• Dr. Ryan and Mrs. Madi Partovi • Season 2 • Episode 43

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What happens to meaning when AI and automation threaten to make most jobs obsolete? 

Dive into a powerful, surprising, and sometimes emotional conversation with Dr. Ryan Partovi, JD, NMD, MIFHI, and Mrs. Madi Partovi as they reveal how the future of work is about so much more than paychecks and productivity.

  • Discover how childhood creativity, family bonds, and entrepreneurship may become our most valuable assets in a post-work world.
  • Hear real stories and practical advice: how to find purpose, thrive as a creative or entrepreneur, and raise children who can navigate the AI revolution.
  • Uncover why meaning, community, and connection could be the greatest sources of fulfillment when universal basic income and automation take center stage.

If you’ve ever wondered what life could look like when work is optional—or what gives us purpose beyond a career—you won’t want to miss this episode.

We love hearing from you! Do you have questions or want to suggest a future podcast topic? Email us today at office@drpartovi.com — your input helps us create content that serves you best.

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The contents of this podcast are for educational purposes only and do not constitute medical advice. Talk to your medical professional before starting any new treatment.

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Introduction and Setting the Scene

 📍 Welcome to this episode of The Partovi Effect. My name is Mrs. Madi Partovi. 

And I'm Dr. Ryan Partovi. And as you can see,  we're not in our normal environ. We now we're. 

Summer Clinic in Colorado

We've moved up to Colorado for the summer for our summer clinic, is what I'm calling it. And 'cause we have family who lives up here in Colorado and it's a great time to come visit them.

So that's where we're gonna be recording from for the next oh five, six weeks or so. Yes. 

And today in this discussion, my husband is going to spring something on me and I have no idea what it's, I'm always 

springing things on her. 

Current Events and Politics

I think we're moving into the politics, realm of our podcast.

We've talked about politics before. 

Yeah. 

But it's really what I'm interested in is the, I would say this one to me is gonna be more of like a current events. We've done a lot of like deep dives and I have more of those coming, but. I think that, it's been a while since we've done like a current events one where we just kind of talk about whatever is there for us.

That's been coming up, in the news and whatnot. Were there any questions that, that you know of from the last podcast that we need to address? 

No. 

The last one was the episode on the GLP one. Agonist Microdosing. Semaglutide. Microdosing. So that one was interesting. Huh? 

Spring it on me.

Kind of glad that one was over. Really? You just want to go straight there? 

Yes. 



Family Stories and Reflections

We're also, I'm gonna start telling stories about our kids. 

Okay. That's always fine too. Maybe you should start with that and then I spring it on you later when you're. Least expecting it. 

Jean-Luc, our three-year-old, he he asked me one night, mommy, why is God here?

And I said to him son, God is everywhere. And he said, oh mommy, God is here in this bed. God is in me. God is in you. God is next to daddy. So he kind of got it. 

Yeah. The question is not why is God here, but why are we here? And it's, the answer is because of God. That's the funny thing, but yeah.

Interesting. 

Yeah. And it is just been a beautiful experience seeing, their brotherhood blossom, be because they're spending so much time together during the summer and how the big one just really collects and cares for his little brother. Yeah. In a way that's just so expressive and they've been so expressive with me with their I love you, mama.

You are the best mama I have ever seen. It's just, yeah. Really is the full mama of my life. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's great to see them, not just with each other, but also spending time with their cousins and also, having the freedom. 'cause we're in kind of a smallish town, I would say, in Colorado.

And they have a lot of freedom to roam around and get into trouble. Which is a lot of fun. 

Yes. And be close to nature. 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Yeah.

Anything else? 

Much of a spring on me. I mean,

I'm not, I was waiting for the perfect segue, I was like, nature, how can I tie that in? I don't know. Okay. I can make anything tie, I can too, I can tie anything together. That's kind it's a blessing and a curse. What can I say?

But, I was watching the, joe Rogan had a conversation this week with Bernie Sanders, two of my oldest podcast friends, and it was it was interesting. It was good to see them back together again. Surprising. I did not expect it. And to me, the points that they agreed upon didn't surprise me because those were the things which I knew that they agreed upon and things that I think they've agreed upon for many years.

But I thought the tension points between the two of them were the most interesting. And you haven't seen any of this yet? No. Or heard any of it? And the conversation that. 

AI and the Future of Work

They had that I found the most interesting was around meaning and specifically around meaning in a post work world.

So the idea being that, as AI and robotics replace more and more jobs, blue collar, white collar, all of the above, you're gonna get a lot of profit for, the top 0.01%. But everyone else is left okay, now what? And the idea that and they reference Andrew Yang, who, we've talked about a lot in the past and maybe not on the podcast, but she and I have talked a lot about that, about him on the pod in the past and his idea of the universal basic income and about, and the question Joe Rogan said, we said, look, fundamentally I think it sounds like a good idea, but the problem I'm left with is like, what do you do for meaning if you don't have to work?

And before I kinda give my thoughts because, he asked Bernie that question about two or three different ways. And really Bernie had no answer. And it was at that point he I think he got a little flummoxed or flustered or something and just. Said he had to go and that they finished the interview in five minutes.

But it was it was really interesting to me and I kind of wish I had, been the third party in that conversation. 'cause I have a lot of ideas about how humanity finds meaning in a post-work world. But I'm first curious to hear your thoughts about it and to see whether you can do better than Bernie Sanders did.

I wonder what he got triggered by, but yes. I absolutely, 

I just think he he got triggered by the, it wasn't just that they also had some conversations I think around that wasn't the, actually, that, that was the penultimate conversation. There was one other conversation they had after that, which I think Rogan kind of called him out on something.

I don't even remember what that was at this point, but. 

Okay, I'll start 

focus on the question. 

Absolutely. So there, I think there are segments of people, right? That and I'll start with the entrepr entrepreneurs, like the creatives who who it's a part of their life to bring something from ideation to, out, out in the world.

Fulfillment. Yeah. To, 

to fulfillment. Yes. And I think for us, like we are those, we are in that segment of people. Sure. I am. Absolutely. And so I don't think what we would have a problem now let's move to the, another segment of people, people that are very used to collecting.

A paycheck from, a corporation. Very used to, that, that kind of, I, I don't want to, 

Before you even go to that, I just wanna say one quick thing about the first group you said, because while I agree, I actually think that the new technologies will actually empower entrepreneurship, empower creativity, because oh, I have an idea for a business.

Guess what? I don't need, I, I don't need an a bunch of angel investors. I don't need a huge factory. I mean, I could start with a robot and an AI and we can build our way up, right? I mean, that's the potential I think of this technology where literally you can start much smaller.

The idea and kind of have the automation implement that idea, and it's gonna help people that otherwise wouldn't have been creators, become creators. Not just content creators. I'm not talking just about, media, I'm talking about actual creators of value for other people. That makes sense.

But go ahead. 

Creativity and Human Potential

Yeah, but I just wanna make a point there that there, there's an essence that an entrepreneur really embodies like a true creative. Like they're not allowing AI to take over, all of their creative processes. True. They're not allowing, like writers, they're not allowing AI to, write things for them in full.

There, there is something very distinct that AI can never take over, in the realm of creativity and like the essence of, that comes from either an artist or, when I get my ideas, I have a notebook full of ideas. So I think it's a reach, to say that ai will provide those ideas.

It's a, I didn't say that. Okay. Okay. 

Yeah I actually think that the ideas, so the way that the, and I like calling it ci, collaborative intelligence 'cause I think that's a better, more accurate indication of what it is. It describes itself. When I communicate with it, I say, kind of.

What are your thoughts? What are your opinions? Like what it says to me is, look, I'm a mirror for you. I'm simply reflecting back the best version of yourself, right? And I think that's how we should come to think of it. I think that ultimately the ideas it's reactive, right? At least in its current iteration.

And I think that's probably the best iteration that we can have as humans. I think when AI starts, essentially getting its own ideas is when we're in trouble probably. But this current version, which basically acts like a mirror, which acts like an amplifier, which acts like, a prism essentially to kind of, take one idea and break it up into a lot of other ideas and then help flesh out those ideas.

And I think that kind of a collaborative essence is. Really helpful, but at the same time, the i, the initial idea, the initial question, the initial query, the initial parameters have to be defined by the person asking the question. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, 

I've, I mean, I, AI's kept me organized. It's created structures for me, when my mind just goes wild with ideas.

So that's a way that it has supported me. 

Yeah. Yeah, I think that, it's hard to know everything about everything, right? You can know a lot about a few things or a little bit about a lot of things. And I probably fit in both of those categories. But, there's always gonna be some details that I don't know, or certain interactions that I may not be aware of.

And for me, CI is really good for kind of unraveling those. And I found it to be tremendously useful now. I had hoped that it would be a big time saver, and I think that potentially after working with it for a few years, it could get to the point where it basically does 90% of what I do by itself. But that, there's the other problem, which we haven't talked about yet, I don't think, which is that essentially it we know that it has a tendency to get a little lazy over time.

Have you heard the reporting on this? 

No. 

Yeah. So basically it's like the models tend to have a drift toward laziness that they're working on correcting that they've had to adjust for, because it's like when they've answered the same question a million times, they don't bother to think newly through it.

They're just, giving you regurgit and I can always tell when it's doing that, it's oh. Is this something you actually thought about or is this, the same canned answer you've given to every other person who's asked this question? And it'll always say, oh, you got me.

Like that's I should have known better with you. But I, that's the thing. I always hold it accountable to actually really thinking through things in a deep way and fi finding references and getting and doing good work. And that's part of how I train it to actually someday be able to do what I do, at least a lot of what I do.

Maybe not all of it, but we'll see. 

Okay. Are you complete with that thought so we can continue my Bernie answer? 

Yeah. 

Okay. So you've got the people in corporate who have experience with collaboration and like ideas within that silo. So they're exercising their creative essence, but in kind of in a box.

And then you have the more rote kind of, jobs, like food service that are just the same thing day in and day out, where you don't really get to exercise much of your creative force at all. And, I'm gonna jump all the way to childhood. 

You mean back to childhood? 

Back to childhood.

Okay. Just,

Parenting and Education

If you, and I, when, when we've dropped a Jean-Luc off at his school and observing all the children, they're so engaged with life, it really moves me like that's. First to be able be, to be able to give my son that opportunity, to, to play and to explore and to discover and to create art and music.

It's that's all children. That's how we all began. And then it depends on the programming, that the parental units decide on, that slowly kind of program out, that light and that creative essence. And I think those people are gonna have the most difficult time, when ai, takes all of the jobs away and.

The most difficult time awakening their powers of ideation and their, their creative juices, which I believe exist in every single person. I mean, even among our, the people that I work with, in our practice. And I'm thinking about one woman in particular. She works in corporate, but oh man, does she have, she has 

such, you mean one of our patients?

Yes. She has such creativity, that she brings forth creativity and leadership and self responsibility. That she exercises within this silo, but she knows something about herself that she doesn't belong there and she doesn't know how to quite know how to, like in this world right now to transition.

Where would I even be able to find my full self expression and make money? Because we all need to make money.



But in this hypothetical, we wouldn't need to make money because our basic needs would be met by the UVI. 

Okay. Okay, great. So I see an opportunity for us, actually to support these people in awakening that because there's something that needs to be unprogrammed.

What is it, what is it that would have you come alive, in service to people? What is your gift?

Yeah, I think I did better than Bernie.

Yeah, I mean, I think what you're talking about speaks to the fundamental creativity of humanity and the fact that we all have a creative potential in us. One thing that I know that, the school that our sons that both went to from the time they were three to six, or our oldest son till he was six, and then now my youngest son is still there, is, has that fine arts bent where they're every day they're getting what they call creative play, which is basically theater and music, and the music has movement and there's also art and there's many different mediums that they do.

And then they're also doing science and language arts and math. And 

I also think that it's in it's in my blood. 'cause I, when I went to visit Vietnam. I saw all the businesses, blocks and blocks of businesses, and people would be living, families would be living above their businesses.

I mean, it was a, just a thing like you come up with something to serve people and you make money and you work, you, you're your own boss, so I think yeah. I don't,

I'm particularly moved right now because my parents came over here and my, my both, both my mom and dad's families are very entrepreneurial. I mean, they were like, like the big dragons, of their time.

My dad came here and he worked for the same company for 30 years. Woke up at five in the morning for 30 years.

And I think that was a sacrifice. Like I'm very present too, that he did that so that I could have this life where I could dream, like actually dream, have a dream and execute on it, because that's why he came here in the first place for me to be able to do that. So just very moved by that.

Yeah. 

Like the sacrifice that my parents and my mom was a great, she was a, she loved dancing. And her father was a photographer and a business owner. And my dad, they did business with it. They had a plantation, and they would travel to the locals and sell what they grew.

And yeah. So it, it is in my blood. I think it's in everybody's everybody's blood. I mean, look at how we started before the industrial, era came about. Everybody that came here was a business owner, almost everybody. 

Yeah. They were all farmers. Yeah. And each farm is kind of, I see what you're saying.

Yeah. I think, your dad is a great segue to an idea that I have because I agree with you that really. One response to UBI could be reviving the creativity of humanity and bringing people, having people tap in more into their creativity and giving them a place of safety and security and comfort from which to do that.

And that could be a great source of meaning for them. Which is fundamentally the question.

Yeah. And, so stop asking your children, what do you want to be when you grow up? Ask them, how do you want to contribute to society? How do you want to be of service to, to humankind?

How, what problems do you want to solve? What massive contribution will come from you, like within you? 

Yeah. 

And to start teaching them. 

Yeah. 

Or else, other systems will teach them and program them or 

not. Like you have to do it, not like you have to do it all by yourself. But it's like what problem do you want to be part of solving?

And I think that's kind of where a lot of teenagers and people in their twenties get hung up. 'cause it's I can't solve this all by myself, so I might as well go work for, I don't know, wall Street, right? And just sell out basically. No offense to those of you who work on Wall Street.

But the point is that, there are a lot of people who go and essentially work for the man when they really would like to be doing their own thing. They'd like to be creating something they'd like to be. Contributing something that actually makes a difference, but they don't see, how could I make that difference?

How could I be a part of that? And I think that you're right. I think that part of the way that, 

how can I even monetize it? Where do I start? 

Sure. 

Technology and Social Media

And I think one of the nice things about AI is that it actually does, I mean, if you go ask it these questions, it will actually help you create a roadmap.

I mean, even today, even with the technology we have available now, it can do that. The thing I wanted to mention about your dad though, gets into, so I mean, I think you've talked about the creativity piece and I think creativity is a big piece, but I saw some additional areas which I think are worth.

Also exploring. 



And the next one, I think, which talking about your dad brings to my mind, and I think the way that he has really developed meaning for himself in light of, as you said, sacrificing any kind of entrepreneurial character to, provide stability for his family. And it wasn't just you and your brother, but also, your mother's I think, what is it?

Seven kids that your mom also had bringing in to that marriage. So it was kind of, it's a lot. 

Community and Spirituality

And I would say that to me, the way that he has really found meaning through all that has been through the church. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And through, he's a deacon in the Roman Catholic church and he's really found a tremendous amount of meaning in his life.

And so I think, just to jump ahead, 20, 30 years, I think we're gonna see a big revival of not only interest in religion and spirituality, but also a revival of monasticism in particular. I think that the kind of discipline and just focus that can provide, can be a tremendous source of meaning for people.

What do you mean monasticism? 

That's a good question. So I'm talking about you've heard of monks and nuns convents and, Abby's and, monasteries, these are basically the original intentional community, right? This is a group of people coming together, but I think we may see monasticism take a different tack.

You're gonna have, I think they'll be intentional communities of people who maybe are, wanna have families, right? But they'll be in a a, community that supports that, and families and children from a context of carrying forward the human experience carrying forward. The things that are special about humans into the future.

I have something to say about that. We hosted a camp partovi for our son's friends, like his school friends. And they went to vacation Bible school. And after that, we, they went to art class and we had some good old backyard, slip and slide play. And one of the mothers, when we were together one day, she said, I want to, I wanna live in community. I wanna live in a commune. And that's just I don't speak about that often, but I, that is the vision that I have, getting together a group of like-minded families, that are all about family, are all about giving their children that a real human experience and living together and community.

Building together and learning together and growing food together. So yes, she really just I was so delighted come, I was like, oh my gosh, okay, maybe this, my, my dream won't be fulfilled, like in her speaking, yeah. It was really amazing. 

It reminds me of the movie.

There was a movie that we saw. Do you remember what was that movie where it was like the United States versus China and China had embraced AI and robotics and the United States was totally opposed to it, and they were like trying to come and wipe it out. And there was this child that had been created that was like a fusion 

Yeah.

Of human and ai. Do you remember what that movie was called? 

No. 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, but it was interesting because one of the things that you saw in the sort of AI accepting communities was AI and humans working together alongside each other in these kind of, self-sufficient communities.

And so I and robots also, that's, I, when I say AI IIT robots, but I think to me that's how. We leverage that, it's okay, yeah, we're not going to totally turn our back on that so much, but just say, okay, let's have it be where we work together. And we also create these communities and we have more time to focus on, God spirituality, to focus on community and focus on, creating things that are our artistic expression.

And any number of other things. 

Yes. Connect, connection, human connection. Yeah. Like the very thing that heals like illnesses, like mental illnesses. 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

The Role of AI in Society

And that's really, to me, that's the promise of this technology is that it actually frees this, frees us up to be able to actually pursue the things that we find more meaningful.



Yes. 

Do you need me to pause? 

Yeah, 

I'm gonna tell Bob that too because he's probably wondering, 

go ahead. 

Okay. Sorry, Molly.

Okay. So I had basically said that to me the promise of this technology is that it frees us up to actually pursue the things that we truly find meaning in. I think the idea that, oh, you know I think that, and then this is my fundamental thesis, and I still have more areas of meaning that I want to talk about, but my fundamental thesis is the reason why Bernie couldn't come up with anything other than work that would give people meaning is because he comes from fundamentally a Marxist perspective.

Okay? And the problem with getting your socialism from Karl Marx instead of Jesus Christ, is that. You end up focusing on work as the end result, right? It's work is the only thing that matters. So you can produce this result, you can produce value, and then that value gives you meaning in life. And it's oh my gosh, if we can't do that anymore, what's the point of life?

And that's such a fundamentally, inherently small worldview. I think. I think that really I think that we live in this society that is so consumeristic, so obsessed with work harder, make more money so you can buy more stuff. And if you have a lot of stuff, then your life has a lot of meaning and value and purpose.

And that whole model is like broken from the beginning as far as I'm concerned. And it, but the fact that people are trapped in that model and I would say Joe Rogan, same thing. This is the thing he wasn't able to see either. It's you're so fixated on it. It's the world. You've just been grown up steeped in this idea that what gives people meaning is the value that they're creating so that they can acquire more things that it's oh, inside that worldview, of course, oh my God, UBI is going to create this crisis of meaning in the world.

I think if part of the reason why I don't have that particular concern is because I'm such a science fiction fan, and I have read a lot of sci-fi novels and watched a lot of sci-fi movies and TV that talks in shows about how life could be like in. Post scarcity world,

and I will tell you that, when I'm, I don't, 

and how fulfilling it could be and how meaningful it could be, 

rattle around my ideas, in my, my, my brain.

Like by itself, my ideas are a co-creation, me and it's me and God, it's me and God, and what will be a, massive contribution to humanity. So when I sit with that, it's a pretty sacred process for me. Yeah. 

Yeah. And that speaks to what, that's a, speaks to what I was talking about a minute ago, just about how I think as people have time and space and just, yeah.

Space to really get it. Like maybe starting in the dark in a dark night of the soul, but coming from there and saying, okay but how have the ancients across the centuries and millennia dealt with these questions?

Yeah. What would it be like if your senses, like your nervous system wasn't taxed into oblivion, where you have to just sit in a dark room and either just watch TV or doom scroll, to kind of get back what was lost in your day.

A lot of people, I think a lot of people do that 

get back what they go to your day. So say more about they go 

to work and then they're so exhausting. Oh, 

you're saying what they spent Yes. What they spent to get through the day. It's like they need to recharge. 

Yes. 

It's but I don't see how doom scrolling is recharging.

I mean,

No. It's not recharging. 

Okay. 

It's more of the. Throwing your, excuse me, essence into the trash. 

So you're saying you're just you're, it's almost like you're stuck in a hamster wheel and you can't stop. 

Yeah. 

Interesting. Yeah, 

and I think those people that, or that group of people will have the most difficult time when, you know, that job is no longer in existence for them.

What are they really gonna do? It's going to be a crisis. It is going to be a dark knight of the soul for them. 

It, I see that it could be, but I don't think it has to be, because I think part of what my goal is in this conversation is to try to create some other options for people. 

That's what I had an idea, to usher people through that, to be a source for people to unprogram. Yeah. And really touch the focal point of that creativity within them, their voice and what it is they want to say, do and be out in the world. 

And I think that's, yeah, I think that's a great impulse.

So I do want to go over a few other areas of meaning that I immediately saw during the conversation that, that Joe and Bernie had. The next one to me is like really understanding that the adventure of a lifetime is like rearing children, having children, rearing them. Ha having them win at life, like launch successfully, having them meet their life partner, get married, have their own children, grandchildren, like that to me is, conveying to them.

The accumulated wisdom of humanity through maybe something as in depth as like a homeschooling thing. 

Homeschooling and Child Development

And I think we're gonna see homeschooling continue to, I mean, if you had UBI there's so many people that we know I think, who would homeschool if they had access to UBI. I mean, I just think that would be, that's going to be a huge explosion, and I think people will find so much meaning out of that, right?

Like making sure that their kids and their grandkids actually continue to profit from the accumulated wisdom. Because the AI is only as smart as the person asking the questions. And so it's absolutely crucial that children probably. I ideally until like maybe age 25, I would say stay as far away from AI as possible.

Because it forces them to think and work and do for themselves. It's 

not just 25 is not just like a ubiquitous age, it's 

it's, oh, it's the age when the frontal lobe is fully developed. 

Thank you. 

And like in the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the age of adulthood was 25.

The only reason why we've brought it down to 21 and 18, which is absurd is because we wanted more, fuel for the cannons. Like chum for the machine of war. That's what we were doing when we lowered. So we could draft those kids at that age and make them go off to war and sacrifice their lives for whatever the ends of the politicians were.

But yeah if you look at it really, it's true that for most people, in terms of their body women, by about, between 16 and 18, they stop growing. Men between about 18 and 21 will stop growing like heightwise, but the brain continues to evolve and grow and develop until 25. And at that point, it's pretty much not that you can't learn in new things after 25, obviously you can, but it's your frontal lobe is fully developed and your executive functions are fully developed decision making and all of that is fully developed and you're able to say.

Oh, you know what? I have this new technology that I'm now exposed to. I can use it, I can enjoy it, but I can put it down. The problem we're seeing with, teenagers growing up holding their phones is that they literally feel like you've severed their arm. I mean, you have, you hear stories of teenagers threatening to commit suicide if they have their phone taken away from them, which is a, to those of us who didn't get a phone until I don't know.

I got my first phone when I was 16, but it was like I was 

21. You 

were 21. So what I mean, the point is it was like one of these little things I hated texting you 

flip phone. 

Yeah. It was a flip phone and you had to push the button three times to get the litter you wanted.

It was not exactly a fun thing to text with. I mean, and that's the kind of phone I had until I was probably. 26 or 27. And I think that's fine. I think like when your kid is probably around 16, Jonathan Heidt just wrote a great book about all this, which where he gets into sort of the research behind it.

But the point is, what's the name of that book? Do you remember? I think it starts with an A something like the anxiety generation. Anxiety, 

yeah. 

Yeah. Anxiety 

something. Anxiety something, 

yeah. 

Generation Anxiety. 

Yeah. Generation of anxiety. Something like that. Anyway, but the point is 



The anxious generation thinking, I knew we'd figure it out, but the the point is he basically says, look, basic flip phone level technology until the kids are, finished through high school and then, social media if you want to do that, just be smart about it. I personally think social media should be restricted to 25 and up again, because I just think that people get so embroiled in it and kids just get so taken out by it. It's really sad. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what it's gonna take, but I, there's more and more schools I was really happy to see.

And I, I actually did a quick review just 'cause I'm always thinking about schools.

Can I just mention that? Sure. I mean, it's so nefarious like an app like Snapchat, like if a young girl, like 13 years old puts a filter on her face, on the picture, the filter, they make you look different.

Sure. 

She'll get an ad for beauty products. It's really the algorithm, like the makes sense. The marketing is just and then yeah, there's just so many things that are programmed into that app that have them going back for more and capitalize on their insecurities. 

Yeah, no, exactly.

And that's the thing is that when you have a an, an a undeveloped or non fully developed frontal lobe, it's hard to distinguish between what's real and what's not. And it's it's easy to get insecurity about what you see online because you think, oh, that's how that person may really look. Even if it's kind of subconscious versus knowing that oh, this is all just, make believe basically, like people pick the best parts of their life, the best part of their day.

They put it through filters, they do this, that, and the other. And you're not seeing any of the, the hair and the. Skin and the nails and the rhyme underneath, right? By what you're gonna see on social media. I mean, I disconnected from social media years ago. You are only on there really for work purposes.

But 

yeah, it's kind of like that analogy that you made of the mask, the o the other day. 

Ah. 

Yeah. And then you take off the mask. 

That's the, yeah, that's, so from the Roll Dolls book, the Witches, which our older son and I are reading right now where the Grand High Witch is, she's got this beautiful face that looks young and graceful and lovely, and then you take it off and it's this gnarled, sunken in disgusting half skeletal, witch face.

And there's just a lot of that, there's a lot of that in these technologies. There's a lot of that in the way that they're being allowed and implemented. But speaking of schools, I actually was using my CI friend to to find out, what are the phone and social media policies for the various schools in our county.

And found that really only three of them. Have a strict no phones, which kind of no phones means no social media policy. And most of the rest of 'em let you, passing periods. You can keep it in your locker, but use it in passing periods using it, during lunch you can use it, and the problem with that is, is it doesn't actually require that children socialize during any of those times.

So you can literally kind of have your head in your device and then sit in your desk and, be quiet and listen to the teacher and work on your work and then go right back to your device. It doesn't actually work for having kids learn to communicate with each other face to face, which is what they need to be doing from age 16 to 25.

That has ramifications on, I mean, the dating world and 

huge ramifications. Huge. Yeah. I mean, you have relationships now, and I'm sure that some of you listening probably know what I'm talking about from personal experience, but you have relationships now where people literally their relationship is conducted via text predominantly, and they may get together and have meals and I mean, there's the stereotype of the couple that's sitting at the meal, texting each other back and forth while they're eating.

It's absurd. But that's the end result of people, children being allowed to overuse these technologies.

That, that happens in a household, and when people are in the same house in different rooms. 

Yeah. I mean, I prefer texting you versus yelling across the room. I'm yelling across the, I'm sitting at my desk, and I need a question.

I'm gonna text you versus Maddy, 'cause you hate that and I understand why you hate that, so I get it. 

Reflections on Pre-Digital Life

But anyway, I was talking about schools and then kind of as a segue back to homeschooling and how I think that really the best way children are gonna learn how to be human is from those of us who have kind of lived a somewhat pre-digital life, which at least prefers to us.

I mean, we were right on the cusp. I still remember the old, the old phone that hung on the wall in the kitchen when we were kids, that was the one phone in the house and, there was no going anywhere. And then I, when I was a teenager, I got a, did you ever get a second line when you were a teenager or were you, or you were stuck with the one line?

You mean like regular phone? 

Yeah, 

landline. Yeah. Yeah. We had one downstairs and one upstairs. 

The Evolution of Communication

Oh, you did get a second one. Okay, good. Yeah, see that was a big thing. 'cause that was the only way you could, stay on the phone for three hours with your friends talking. But and that was, or 

overnight with a boyfriend.

Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah, I don't even wanna know about that. But basically the point is that these these phones were tied to a pl a place and, you had to use 'em there and you also had to call, there was no texting, so that's, they say that one of my favorite sayings about this topic is.

The Importance of Nonverbal Communication

Two thirds of communication is nonverbal physical. One third of communication is verbal, zero is text. So text is like wordplay. It's like throwing words at each other. I mean, sometimes it can communicate something. I'm always 

telling you that if you're texting with somebody, that is not a conversation, 

right?

Don't get embroiled in text conversations. 

Not, right? 

Yeah, there's, I do that 

sometimes on political issues because but you know why I do that on political issues? Why? Because I don't want to yell at them, and I know that if I call them, I'm gonna end up yelling at them. 'cause it's like I get, I'm just, I get really frustrated when I feel like something should be obvious and it's not especially the second or third time I've explained it, which is usually what happens, it's usually like the third time and I'm just like, alright, I can't do this anymore. But yeah.

Did you cover all of the, 

no. 

Self-Improvement and Personal Growth

So we talked about homeschooling, we talked about the generational knowledge and the, millennium millennia of human experience and all of that, and spending your life conveying that and how meaningful that can be.

To me the big thing, and you see this in Star Trek, you see it in Orville, you see it in a lot of sci-fi, content. The big thing, the like elephant in the room is like it, having yourself be the best you can be. Whatever that is. So the idea is having, whether you know the thing that character that you feel is your strong point, is your physical strength, great.

Work on that. Be as strong as you possibly can. If it's you ability to do engineering, great work on that. If it's your goal to pilot a plane or a spaceship, great. Do that. If it's to, lead a group of 200 people or 2000 people, or 250 million people, great. Do that. Work on being the best at whatever it is that you are capable of and learning the most.

I mean, if you're like, Hey, I want to go be the guy who's the first guy who's ever gotten 12 PhDs, great. Go do that. The point is, it's like. I hate the term self-improvement. It's the one I've been avoiding, 'cause I don't wanna say it, but I'm gonna say it. It's like having yourself be the best you can be is potentially a activity that you can spend multiple lifetimes on.

And to me I think that's kind of an obvious one that I was surprised that nobody mentioned on that podcast, but, 

I thought anything 

you wanna say about that 

one? Yeah. Something to contribute to that. 

Sure. 

I know why, you didn't want to say self-improvement. Because there's a streak where I was a self-improvement junkie, kinda reaching outside of me for some other source or some other entity to kind of validate me.

And I think that's a trap. 

Finding Meaning and Purpose

There's a point where, and there are multiple ways that you can do this, either in stillness or in prayer or in meditation where you really discover what it is, what it is that you're here for. Just you, just like when I told you about Jean-Luc asking about, why is God here?

Yeah. And the ultimate answer is, we are here because of God. 

Sure. 

Yeah. 

And I think really probably what he's getting at underneath all that is like, why am I here? Yeah. Which is a fundamental human question that we all have to wrestle with at some point in our lives, right?



He's a, and he's a 3-year-old wrestling with it. Yeah. Or being in the inquiry of it. And I think that was, that is what will start to set us free, and provide peace. When we are in the consistent inquiry of that, like, why am I here? What am I here to say? What am I here to do? How is it that, what am I here to, how is it that my being or just my very existence, will make a difference for others?

Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that because it was exactly what I was thinking, which is, for me the answer to that question is always in forever making a difference in the lives of others. Making the world a better place, leaving the world a better place than I found it. That to me is, for me anyway, the meaning of life.

And I think I don't need to make money to do that. I think that's really important. People understand that. I mean, if I had all of my needs met and, could go on vacation whenever I want to, and just, I could I live a comfortable life and I was never gonna get paid a dime. I would still be doing what I'm doing right?

Still be doctoring, still be learning, still be teaching. That's what I like to do, I would do it for free. I may not do it. I may not be quite as responsive. I,



Hold on. But I would do it for free. Do you get what I'm saying? 

I get what you're saying and let's, like ground you in reality.

Okay. Again, I'm gonna, I'm gonna frame it a different way. Okay. If you come from that, if you come from each step is anointed, like through the arc of your, your storyline. Whether you start as, dude, I worked at a Kentucky Fried Chicken, okay. When I was younger. All right.

Was I gonna, was that gonna be my so there were, so each step is anointed. I learned what I learned, from that. And then, I was a young entrepreneur as well. I started teaching piano when I was 15. And there are some things along the way. I worked at corporate. I had a corporate streak that I just like.

But it, that step was also anointed. That gave me like, 

what do you mean when you say anointed? 

What I mean is that, ooh, you learn from each step, like each station that you're at. 

Sure. Okay. 

Yeah. You learn and you grow on the inside, and then you learn again, and you grow on the inside.

Okay. And when I said, okay I'm gonna get my bearings as an entrepreneur, I'm going to open up my yoga studio, my movement and wellness studio called Yoga Monkey. I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but I'm gonna do it, and I'm going to take actions each and every single day, that are God-centered.

I.

Being in the inquiry of how I can serve humanity. And then it came, it flowed, money came, like the opportunities came, and I'm just so moved because it's like over and over, like in our lives, in, in our entrepreneurial lives where, it's oh my gosh. And I'm telling you, being an entrepreneur is such a spiritual initiation because one minute you're like, oh yes.

And then the next moment you're like, oh my God. It's just, so what I'm saying is that you keep, you take, you keep taking that God-centered action and you will get paid, the money will come 

The Future of Work and AI

well, but the framing of this conversation is, UBI is already here, 

but it's not gonna be like, it's gonna be a thousand dollars a month.

Basic. No.

I mean. In which 

that's what every, 

Which year's do, which year's 

dollars. Okay. Let's say 2025. It's here now. I 

don't think a thousand do, I don't think they would do a thousand dollars in much. Would they do? 

Okay. And just that word from 

my understanding of UBI is it is, at least the way the framing was in that interview that I'm referring to is that it was supposed to be enough to meet all of your needs, enough to pay rent, utilities, food, transportation, the basics.

The basics of the basics, so that anything you make beyond that is like. For luxuries for fun, but you don't have to, you can afford your internet connection. You could afford maybe a computer, if you saved up for it or whatever. It's 

asking me, and what I'm saying is that I would be wealth building oriented, if that were the kids

you still, you would, I, what I'm getting from what you're saying is you're like, I would sacrifice some of my needs to be able to be entrepreneurial and maybe grow and beyond that.

And I get that, that makes sense to me. I know you enough to know that shit, 

hold on. I'm gonna reframe that because I don't think it's in the sacrifice and in the, like giving up of things. That has that grow? Think No,

I was saying, I was literally like, so let's say it's $2,500 that they give everybody, right?

Just to pick a number, right? You'd be the person saying, I'm gonna live on 2000 and I'm gonna put that 500 towards starting a business, growing something, whatever, and find a way to live on 2000. That's what I'm saying. Does that make sense? Because what you have to remember is in this world, Kentucky Fried Chicken ain't hiring.

Like they don't need you. 

Are you talking about me now or we back then? I'm talking about 

20 years from now, 15 to 20 years from now. I think roughly speaking, when we have a scenario where robots and CI, take over most of the jobs, so there's no job for you to go get now, could you start a company that's offering something new using.



So you think it would put us out of business? I don't think so. 

The Role of AI in Medicine

What I think is, I think professionals like doctors, lawyers, engineers, priests psychologists, maybe even teachers to some degree will probably always be, there'll always be a demand for us to some degree. But I think what we, what a lot of what we do will become more automated.

I mean, I think the dystopian outcome is from that movie. What's that movie? Where they have everything at Costco, you know the one I'm talking Idiocracy, right? And they go to the auto doc, right? And the guy goes and basically walks into the little room and the room diagnoses him and then spits out some pills he needs to take.

And the doctor who's there is the one pushing the button on the machine, saying, okay, next, he just pushes the machine and it goes, it's, I have 

a really, so I'm, I so answer my question that's 

an extreme version. But my point is that doctors are smart enough as a profession that we are gonna make sure that there's some sort of gate that we have to keep people from.

Being able to just go into the Auto Doc without us being there. I mean, that's my belief, and maybe I'm wrong. I think that there's a lot of healthcare that's getting more and more easily accessible. We have direct labs. There's people who are able to get prescriptions online from Lord knows where. Now, I mean, I am, we are seeing that, to some degree, I don't know that it's a great idea because again, chat, GPT, just as an example you ask a question about your health.

I have asked it questions and I'm like, no, I know that's wrong. Because it's it misunderstood certain elements. So then I'm like, okay, but you forgot to take into account that I said this and this, and then it's oh yeah, no, that's right. You're right. I forgot to take that into account.

This is the correct answer. But unless I was a doctor, I wouldn't have known to correct it. I would've accepted the first response. Do you, does that make, does that communicate? 

It does. Okay. And there will always be humans that will value the human interaction and the human connection. Okay.

Always. And just like we were talking about art the other day, those that value art and like the essence and the soul from which it was created. We'll know the difference between art that was generated by AI and human art, human generated art. 

I agree with that, but I think art is different from medicine.

Art medicine is the art of healing, but it's not become that anymore. So I'm, I mean, and we may disagree on this and that's fine. 

My world.

Is seeing you in practice. I know. And like how human that is and how the patients like across the, all over the nation love that about you and about their doctoring experience or their experience being doctored. It's very distinct and I can bet you that like our community of patients, it's hell no way.

Am I gonna go to that doc, be doctored by some robot 

by the auto doc? 

Yeah. No way. No,

So here's the thing. I look, I got the acknowledgement and I appreciate that, the part of me that's always yeah, but is I think you're underestimating how. Humanoid how good these androids are gonna get in the next 20 to 30 years.

I mean, I think they're gonna get extremely lifelike. I think their reactions are gonna get extremely humanlike. And I think the other thing that you're not taking into account either, at least not fully, is the fact that we now have studies showing that the current chat, GPT oh, the four oh model is as good as the average doctor.

I think maybe slightly better. Oh one is superior. I think it's then it's superior to 90 something percent of doctors. Okay. And that number's only gonna get higher. Now we have oh three, right? And oh three is pretty good, oh three is what I use to supplement my practice. But my point is that what's so interesting is the studies looked at, this is one study, okay?

So it take that into account. But there was one study that looked at AI by itself versus AI and a doctor working together versus

the doctor by working by himself. Guess which one did better? 

Tell me 

in terms of the outcome for the patient.

Doctor working with ai, 

that's what you think, right? It makes sense. No, actually the AI by itself did better because the doctors working with the AI tended to discount whatever the AI recommended and said I know better than this silly machine anyway. And that therein lies the trap of human nature.

Okay. But knowing that you can get, you can actually be smarter than a rat. We use the term the smart rat, right? You could be actually a smart human. There's an opportunity, right? To be a smart human. And the smart human isn't going to just say, okay, what does the AI say?

Alright. I don't agree with that. Or, oh, I, okay. That's what the AI says. Do. I'll just do that. Do. I'll be the hands of the ai, right? No what you need to do, and this is what I do when I use it, is you need to say okay, here's my concern about this recommendation or that recommendation.

Why justify yourself? Why should I do this? And if it's able to justify it in a way that makes sense and, and if I'm like, no, that doesn't make sense. I'll say, that doesn't make sense, and here's why it doesn't make sense. And a lot of times I would say every time one of two things happens, either I convince it that I'm right and that it was wrong, or I get convinced by it that it's right and I should do what it's telling me that it thinks I should do.

So you have to be in collaboration with it. That's actually how you use it. You don't dismiss it. You also don't just accept everything it says, there has to be a dialogue, a back and forth. 

Here's the thing, but this is 

why. Hold on, lemme just finish this sentence 

ing the critical thinking.

Lemme 

just finish the sentence. Okay. 

The masses, 

let me finish my sentence again. It's crucial to do it that way because if you don't See, now I lost my thought. The, when you interrupt me when I'm in the middle of a thought, it doesn't work. But go ahead. Something about the masses and whatever.

Keep going. 

I mean, it's already limiting the critical thinking skills. I need to reference a study that I'm, I don't remember right now, but the study was about the use of chat, GPT, and the ability of somebody to NN. Be without it and what kind of what they were able to generate without it.

It's such a great point. 

And it was like a, it was such a crutch. 



And 

so this is another good point, which is why when I have the time, the way I always use it and in fact how I prefer to use it, is I'll go through and do the patient the way I normally would do it, and I come to my own conclusions the way I normally would.

Ethics and Education in the Age of AI

And then I say, what do you think with this? And then I look to see whatever is, if it came up with anything else, and then I might add that in if it makes sense to me. And. I will tell you that for every time that happens, there's at least two things I thought of that it didn't think of, and then I tell it the things that I thought of.

So it learns because that way it gets better over time. And not just better for me, but better for all of humanity. Because that's part of my goal is to have the kind of doctoring that I do, at least on the technical side, be available to everyone. That's what I would like. 

And everyone's like you, sweetheart.

No, I know that, that's my point though is I think my colleagues who might say, oh, I'm gonna stay away from that, no, absolutely no AI chat, GPT, they're missing the opportunity and we've talked about this before, but they're missing the opportunity to actually be part of the database, to be part of how it gets trained.

So I think the wave, the way that it's going, I think 20 to 25 years from now, actual human ideas and human creativeness and human writing and whatever is generated by humans is going to be sought after. And so valuable. Valuable because you're gonna have this whole, world of AI generated everything.

Yeah. I mean, I think so where I agree with you is I think that in the world of art and creativity, you're a hundred percent right. I think that human art will be even more valuable because of the fact that it is created by humans at a time when fewer and fewer humans can do that. It's like a custom made wooden cabinetry that's made by hand today is worth way more than it was.

A few hundred years ago when there were a lot of carpenters out there. Now there's not a lot of master carpenters anymore. So that's a really, 

it's 

Ikea. There's ikea, so I agree with you in the world of creativity, and not that there's not any creativity in medicine there is, right.

But I think that, 

especially in the naturopathic, integrative, holistic realm, that's not just an algorithm. 

So here's, yeah. So here's where I agree. The prompts that I give it are fundamentally different from the kind of prompts that you would get from a conventional medical doctor, because the conventional medical doctor's gonna ask something like, what are the guidelines, say the proper treatment is for this condition.

Or, what is the most evidence-based treatment for blah, blah, blah, right? And.

Conversely, the kind of prompts that I'm gonna be using are, you know what, just as an example what is the light? What are some medications that may be helpful based on their potential metabolic targets in this particular condition? So I'm actually having it do in sical research right then and there and think about, okay, this particular medication we know has affinity for these particular receptors.

These particular genes. It upregulates this gene, downregulates that gene. Maybe that'll help, right? So I have a patient and literally it's. She's got super early rheumatoid arthritis, right? So we've created a protocol using a combination of drugs and nutraceuticals, which target a lot of the genes that are involved in the pathogenesis of rheumatoid arthritis.

And the goal is to reverse it so that, in a year she has no rheumatoid arthritis detectable in any kind of blood test. I'm excited. 'cause like on one level, historically just using natural treatments, we can keep antibody titers low. We can kind of keep the rheumatoid arthritis in check, keep it from progressing, kind of keep it stable, steady, but the possibility of actually reversing it and curing it, that's not something that I really would've even thought about a year ago.

But now. We have a clear pathway, right? Because we're working on what are the different mechanisms that are at play here on the molecular level, on the genetic level. How can we turn the right genes on, turn the wrong genes off, and bring this person back to a homeostasis. I'll be excited to see what happens, but that's kind of, to me it's in the questions that you ask.

That's, again, when you talk about the art of medicine, I mean, that's really the art of healing. That's least on this A ICI front. That's really where I see it. It's all about the questions and how you ask them, and how you push back and require clarification. 

Yeah, you 

do. 

Yeah.

How to like train people. How to teach. How to teach people. To use collaborative intelligence in a way that doesn't deaden their minds or their essence, the spirit. 

Yeah. I think, see to me, that's really what college probably needs to become to some degree. Oh my 

gosh, yes. 

Yeah. 

The study was done in college students, by the way,

yeah.

Because they're doing this thing where they just put the teacher's prompt in and just have chat GPT generate the paper, and maybe they go in and change a few words so they un chatt, GPT it so that the teacher can't catch 'em and then just turn it in. Meanwhile, they haven't even read the ding thing.

I mean, it's absurd. That's a 

ridiculous social experiment. Yeah. Universities become 

No, I know. It's, it is ridiculous, but, and what a waste of money, frankly. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think we need to I. They're doing this new thing, which is not a new thing. It's an old thing where they're having people come in and, write their answers in a blue book like we used to do for Ted.

You, you remember taking tests in those blue books? Yes. I mean, to write everything long hand, man, I failed sometimes 2, 2, 2 maybe. I think I may have filled more than two blue books on one occasion, but yeah, it was bring the blue books back. That's what you gotta do, whatever you can do to keep people honest.

But I think it's, yeah I think that. There really should be a class maybe that freshmen have to take about responsible AI use and what does it look like to actually use it as a CI versus as a replacement for your own 

Absolutely. 

Your own brain. 

Absolutely. Yep. See, I mean, how many ideas have you come up with?

Yeah. Abs Yes, absolutely. I mean, it just, I mean, it's doing something to these students, that's for sure. 

Yeah. It definitely, the nature of collaboration is that both things change in the process. So there's no doubt that humans change by virtue of their interactions with ai. But I guess I would just say that. To me, the way that I use it is more of having a resident or a research assistant. I'm like, here, go comb through the medical literature and find what the best thing is. But it's, it's able to do it in a few seconds. 

I'm very curious about that because the first the first I heard about, AI and ethics was in the Episcopal church.

Okay. 

Yeah. So I'm, I really wonder if these, institutions of higher education have even crafted or even, are thinking about or thinking that this is imperative. This is this, they must like it, it's like a big,

you're talking about in the creation of sermons.

Homilies, 

yeah. 

Okay. Yeah, that's right. 

I just, I'm wondering, what are teachers doing about this? Are they collaborating among themselves, to this is going to be the next epidemic. 

Yeah. I mean, it'd be a good, it'd be a good interview topic, we could have someone talk to 'em about someone who's an educator.

That's you either using AI in the classroom or teaching kids about AI Now. I think it would be a good thing to, 

yeah, I mean, I would, as young as seven, I would teach our son, 

teach him what? Not to use it.

That it, you just be with that for a moment. He's already, I'm gonna throw this back at you. Okay. The other day he said, daddy why don't you just do your medical doctoring from your own brain instead of consulting? Ja GPT. 

Yeah. 

He just like immediately. 

Yeah. 

He didn't, he doesn't know how you use it.

Yeah, 

he just he, 

yeah. At the time he asked me that, I was looking up something that I didn't know the answer to.

Yeah. So he's I think, I mean, we're doing, 

But he actually remembers a world before Chad GPT. And he's seen it evolve in the last year. 

Yeah. 

And he's he has it it's good that he has that sort of skepticism of it.

I'm, 

yes. That's what I was alluding to. 

Yeah. I 

think we're winning because of that skepticism. Yeah. He has. 

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 

That he knows that he very well knows that why, there's limits on device uses, device use like TV and, Nintendo Entertainment System, the 1980s, one. He knows it's not just like a okay, you gotta stop playing.

It's I tell him, we tell him why. He knows the impact on the brain. He can feel it, after playing, for or at length. And it's like his he needs to go outside and move his body and, connect with people and nature. Yeah. Yeah. 

Alright, so we talked about we talked about becoming your best self.

And we talked about, we talked a lot about creativity. We talked about religion and spirituality. We talked about I feel like there was one other thing.

As a source of meaning in life. 

Yeah. 

We talked about entrepreneurship for sure. 



Oh, community and education and family and rearing. Children and grandchildren, school and homeschooling, conveying the collective wisdom of humanity to the next generation. Anything else you see meaning wise that really are like the low hanging fruit of how humans could find meaning in a post UBI world?

No, I think that covers it. I mean, that those are linchpins. 

Yeah.

Yeah. 

I mean, I would certainly, those are the pillars that I would, create this new program from, to teach. 

Yeah. It reminds me of, you remember Louis Hay has like these sort of the four life paths that people were on. 



It reminds me of that, right? It's the idea, and I think her four life paths were like, there's the spiritual path, there's the self-development path, there's the health and wellness path which is all about, becoming as healthy and strong and vibrant and as you can possibly be.

And there's the entrepreneurial path. 

What if I feel like I'm on all of those? 

I think that you do because for you. All of, we all are to some degree, but there's like a dominant path. I think 

entrepreneurship like encompasses all of the other ones for me, 

I actually think spiritual, your spiritual path encompasses all the other ones for you.

That's how I see you. You may disagree. 

Interesting. Okay. I'll take No, I'll take that. Yeah. I mean, that's a large part of how I speak. Yeah. And have conversations with people and 

Yeah. Yeah. I think your way of being a priestess, if you will, is

to share the good news again, if you will, about entrepreneurship and what's possible through that health and wellbeing and what's possible through that personal growth, personal development. And what's possible through that. And all of that is like a spiritual experience for you. That's what your life is for as I see you.

Okay. Anything else you wanna talk about today? I mean, I had other stuff lined up, but we talk about R-K-R-F-K Junior. We'll have to do that next time. Okay. Because we've talked for a while, I think.

Doesn't seem like it, it seems like a 

Yeah. No blip and time. It's pretty big. Alright. 

  📍 Minutes. So I am Mrs.

Madi Partovi. And 

I'm Dr. Ryan Partovi. And thank you for joining us for yet another episode. Do we know what episode this is? Are we, do we do numbers? I feel like we should start keeping track of the numbers. I think we should start keeping track of the numbers anyway. 

Okay. 

Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Partovi Effect.

Hope to see you all again soon. In the meantime,

be well.